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	<title>Comments on: David Hawk is wrong - the Affiliate Marketing Industry is alive and kicking</title>
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	<link>http://www.here.org.uk/2007/08/david-hawk-is-wrong-the-affiliate-marketing-industry-is-alive-and-kicking.html</link>
	<description>Welcome to Kieron's blog - the life and times of an Internet Marketeer</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 08 Aug 2008 00:46:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: zowoco</title>
		<link>http://www.here.org.uk/2007/08/david-hawk-is-wrong-the-affiliate-marketing-industry-is-alive-and-kicking.html#comment-7832</link>
		<dc:creator>zowoco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 22:54:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.here.org.uk/2007/08/david-hawk-is-wrong-the-affiliate-marketing-industry-is-alive-and-kicking.html#comment-7832</guid>
		<description>of course! affiliate marketing is a potential that can never be saturated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>of course! affiliate marketing is a potential that can never be saturated.</p>
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		<title>By: 2007 at Here.org.uk. The year in review</title>
		<link>http://www.here.org.uk/2007/08/david-hawk-is-wrong-the-affiliate-marketing-industry-is-alive-and-kicking.html#comment-5754</link>
		<dc:creator>2007 at Here.org.uk. The year in review</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Dec 2007 19:02:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.here.org.uk/2007/08/david-hawk-is-wrong-the-affiliate-marketing-industry-is-alive-and-kicking.html#comment-5754</guid>
		<description>[...] Some guy writes about how the affiliate industry is killing itself. I put him right. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Some guy writes about how the affiliate industry is killing itself. I put him right. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Sweet</title>
		<link>http://www.here.org.uk/2007/08/david-hawk-is-wrong-the-affiliate-marketing-industry-is-alive-and-kicking.html#comment-2134</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Sweet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2007 13:21:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.here.org.uk/2007/08/david-hawk-is-wrong-the-affiliate-marketing-industry-is-alive-and-kicking.html#comment-2134</guid>
		<description>I largely agree with you Keiron that the industry is still positive and will continue to be so. It won't die, it will just evolve. The Google changes will continue, but so will the development of top affiliates and also the more dedicated of the smaller guys. I hope so anyway or we'll all be out of a job...

However while Davids article is definitely towards the negative end of the scale, I think he's perfectly entitled to write something like this without it being accused of being link bait. There are enough reasoned (if a little biased) points of view to back this up.

BTW - As far as I can see, all Lee has done is link to the article to generate some debate on his blog and I think it would be disapointing if your comments made him change anything.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I largely agree with you Keiron that the industry is still positive and will continue to be so. It won&#8217;t die, it will just evolve. The Google changes will continue, but so will the development of top affiliates and also the more dedicated of the smaller guys. I hope so anyway or we&#8217;ll all be out of a job&#8230;</p>
<p>However while Davids article is definitely towards the negative end of the scale, I think he&#8217;s perfectly entitled to write something like this without it being accused of being link bait. There are enough reasoned (if a little biased) points of view to back this up.</p>
<p>BTW - As far as I can see, all Lee has done is link to the article to generate some debate on his blog and I think it would be disapointing if your comments made him change anything.</p>
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		<title>By: James Jenkins-Yates</title>
		<link>http://www.here.org.uk/2007/08/david-hawk-is-wrong-the-affiliate-marketing-industry-is-alive-and-kicking.html#comment-2129</link>
		<dc:creator>James Jenkins-Yates</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2007 11:05:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.here.org.uk/2007/08/david-hawk-is-wrong-the-affiliate-marketing-industry-is-alive-and-kicking.html#comment-2129</guid>
		<description>But I am sure you will agree that, with Google being the major source of traffic for affiliates, not being able to advertise on it would cause affiliate to lose traffic, therefore lose revenue and ultimately profit. The affiliate marketings industry's barriers to entry are a lot higher than they were in 2005, which will slow the growth of our industry. What we need to do is diversify and change so that most affiliate are not dependent on PPC search engine traffic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But I am sure you will agree that, with Google being the major source of traffic for affiliates, not being able to advertise on it would cause affiliate to lose traffic, therefore lose revenue and ultimately profit. The affiliate marketings industry&#8217;s barriers to entry are a lot higher than they were in 2005, which will slow the growth of our industry. What we need to do is diversify and change so that most affiliate are not dependent on PPC search engine traffic.</p>
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		<title>By: Kieron</title>
		<link>http://www.here.org.uk/2007/08/david-hawk-is-wrong-the-affiliate-marketing-industry-is-alive-and-kicking.html#comment-2122</link>
		<dc:creator>Kieron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2007 08:01:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.here.org.uk/2007/08/david-hawk-is-wrong-the-affiliate-marketing-industry-is-alive-and-kicking.html#comment-2122</guid>
		<description>James - you're assuming that just because competition is more evident on Google, that has a negative effect on affiliates? There are plenty of ways to drive traffic to affiliate sites without using Google AdWords.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James - you&#8217;re assuming that just because competition is more evident on Google, that has a negative effect on affiliates? There are plenty of ways to drive traffic to affiliate sites without using Google AdWords.</p>
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		<title>By: James Jenkins-Yates</title>
		<link>http://www.here.org.uk/2007/08/david-hawk-is-wrong-the-affiliate-marketing-industry-is-alive-and-kicking.html#comment-2110</link>
		<dc:creator>James Jenkins-Yates</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2007 01:34:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.here.org.uk/2007/08/david-hawk-is-wrong-the-affiliate-marketing-industry-is-alive-and-kicking.html#comment-2110</guid>
		<description>I have to say I agree with David on this one. The affiliate marketing industry is dieing. In 2005, it was the wild west, anyone could put an ad on Google for a really cheap price. But now competition for the keywords has increased and Google has artificially raised the price.
I think the industry still has its roll to play, but it won't expand at the rate it has in the last few years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to say I agree with David on this one. The affiliate marketing industry is dieing. In 2005, it was the wild west, anyone could put an ad on Google for a really cheap price. But now competition for the keywords has increased and Google has artificially raised the price.<br />
I think the industry still has its roll to play, but it won&#8217;t expand at the rate it has in the last few years.</p>
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		<title>By: Morley Mouse &#187; A merchants point of view - Cashback</title>
		<link>http://www.here.org.uk/2007/08/david-hawk-is-wrong-the-affiliate-marketing-industry-is-alive-and-kicking.html#comment-2107</link>
		<dc:creator>Morley Mouse &#187; A merchants point of view - Cashback</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2007 22:27:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.here.org.uk/2007/08/david-hawk-is-wrong-the-affiliate-marketing-industry-is-alive-and-kicking.html#comment-2107</guid>
		<description>[...] next? Kieron on “David Hawk is wrong - the Affiliate Marketing Industry is alive and kicking” im with both [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] next? Kieron on “David Hawk is wrong - the Affiliate Marketing Industry is alive and kicking” im with both [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Pratley&#8217;s Online Marketing Blog &#187; Affiliate Marketing vs the Tradgedy of the commons</title>
		<link>http://www.here.org.uk/2007/08/david-hawk-is-wrong-the-affiliate-marketing-industry-is-alive-and-kicking.html#comment-2072</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Pratley&#8217;s Online Marketing Blog &#187; Affiliate Marketing vs the Tradgedy of the commons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Aug 2007 17:07:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.here.org.uk/2007/08/david-hawk-is-wrong-the-affiliate-marketing-industry-is-alive-and-kicking.html#comment-2072</guid>
		<description>[...] on how affiliate marketing &#8216;killed itself&#8217;, along with some well written critiques by Kieron from UKOffer and Jason from [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] on how affiliate marketing &#8216;killed itself&#8217;, along with some well written critiques by Kieron from UKOffer and Jason from [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Pratley</title>
		<link>http://www.here.org.uk/2007/08/david-hawk-is-wrong-the-affiliate-marketing-industry-is-alive-and-kicking.html#comment-2071</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Pratley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Aug 2007 17:06:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.here.org.uk/2007/08/david-hawk-is-wrong-the-affiliate-marketing-industry-is-alive-and-kicking.html#comment-2071</guid>
		<description>Couldn't agree more Kieron.
Is everyone who goes into a bank, a robber?

I meet and talk to great affiliates every day who make a point of sticking to the rules, so I know there's plenty of good ones out there, you just have to do a little sifting for the gold to rise to the top.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Couldn&#8217;t agree more Kieron.<br />
Is everyone who goes into a bank, a robber?</p>
<p>I meet and talk to great affiliates every day who make a point of sticking to the rules, so I know there&#8217;s plenty of good ones out there, you just have to do a little sifting for the gold to rise to the top.</p>
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		<title>By: David Z Hawk</title>
		<link>http://www.here.org.uk/2007/08/david-hawk-is-wrong-the-affiliate-marketing-industry-is-alive-and-kicking.html#comment-2054</link>
		<dc:creator>David Z Hawk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Aug 2007 15:14:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.here.org.uk/2007/08/david-hawk-is-wrong-the-affiliate-marketing-industry-is-alive-and-kicking.html#comment-2054</guid>
		<description>Hi All,

First of all, thanks for reading my blog. Good or bad feedback is always appreciated. Second, I'd like to take a moment to respond to some of your comments (briefly, I may try to write more later on my blog).

1. "I can only assume it was wrote as link bait." - I wish I knew how to write good link bait articles but alas I don't. I truely just write about whatever is on my mind at the moment. And it so happened that I had just returned from the Search Engine Strategies conference where I had had a very enlightening conversation with the former head of one of the largest affiliate programs in the US (more on that later).

2. "brand name bidding isn’t really affiliate marketing, it used to be an easy way for affiliates to reap some low hanging fruit but thats all." Low hanging fruit that would otherwise go directly to the merchant. Thus, the merchant is not making a positive ROI on this affiliate traffic and this creates a negative feeling about affliates. In my opinion, anything that creates "positive ROI" results in "positive results for the affiliate community." Anything with "negative ROI" has the opposite effect.

3. "no self respecting affiliate has ever been involved in spyware. Yes maybe a very small handful of bad apples did once upon a time but again they are firmly in the minority." So I sent my article to my friend the former head of a major affiliate program (and still a very prominent figure in a different capacity in the online marketing community), and here's what he wrote: "Good post, although no doubt in my mind that those hijacking sites/programs
are still in affect - too many affiliate managers that are naïve and/or have
incentive to look the other way (the "top" affiliates are helping them make their
number - same conflict the networks have in policing, imo)." Not that this proves anything, but he and I both agree that there are one or two major affiliates in the US that get users to download their software, then do an instant re-direct whenever the user goes to a merchant with an affiliate program to capture the commission. The user has no idea that he is getting redirected, but the affiliate gets money at the merchant's expense. Again, we are talking about year-after-year top 'performers' in the US.

4."Google’s quality score updates have pushed out the arbitrage sites and the poor quality landing page sites. Well David, we true affiliates welcome these changes. We don’t want crap landing pages and arby sites in the sponsored results either. Knocking them out of the way leaves more room for us and our high quality sites that have no problem with Google’s landing page algorithm." Google does not differentiate between "crap affiliates" and "true affiliates." Trust me, over time Google will do everything it can to push out ALL affiliates. I sat down with Google last year and tried to persuade them that there were different types of affiliates (though I did not use the words "good" and "crap" :) ), and the message I basically got was "all affiliates" are not wanted on AdWords. So whether this impacts your site now or a year from now, I'm sorry to say that it will likely eventually happen. More on this concept here: http://blogation.blogspot.com/2006/11/more-on-google-quality-score-law-of.html

5. "David argues that as affiliate marketing becomes more popular it is less “novel” to merchants. Eh? So because it is more popular it isn’t as good? I just don’t follow this argument whatsoever." The basic argument here is that the 'coolness' factor of affiliate marketing no longer exists, and it's much easier to work with one or two major partners on a PPA basis than 5000 small affiliates. I suppose I would modify this to say that if you are a high-quality, high-volume affiliate, there's a good chance a merchant would keep you on, but if you are generating $500 of revenue a month for a merchant, I believe most merchants will eventually decide that the risk of a 'crap affiliate' outweighs any benefit derivered from dealing with many small affiliates.

6. "What about all of the very high quality affiliate sites out there that don’t fit into any of the above categories?" Of course there are good affiliates, my point was and is that the bad affiliates are ruining your reputation. 

7. "David’s views accurately reflect what man “oustsiders” think of our industry." For the record, I worked at Adteractive for two years heading up their paid search team. Adteractive does not have a presence in the UK, but when I was there we did over $100 million a year - all from affiliate marketing. And in my current position, I am responsible for the affiliate program for a major US merchant. When I tightened the T&#38;Cs on our program (no trademarked keyword buying, very few coupons, etc) the revenue from affiliate marketing went way down, but the revenue for the company was not impacted. It's hard not to draw the conclusion from that data that our affiliates were not driving 'positive ROI' to our company.

Anyways, what was supposed to be a short response has now made me late for work. Thanks for the comments. - David</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi All,</p>
<p>First of all, thanks for reading my blog. Good or bad feedback is always appreciated. Second, I&#8217;d like to take a moment to respond to some of your comments (briefly, I may try to write more later on my blog).</p>
<p>1. &#8220;I can only assume it was wrote as link bait.&#8221; - I wish I knew how to write good link bait articles but alas I don&#8217;t. I truely just write about whatever is on my mind at the moment. And it so happened that I had just returned from the Search Engine Strategies conference where I had had a very enlightening conversation with the former head of one of the largest affiliate programs in the US (more on that later).</p>
<p>2. &#8220;brand name bidding isn’t really affiliate marketing, it used to be an easy way for affiliates to reap some low hanging fruit but thats all.&#8221; Low hanging fruit that would otherwise go directly to the merchant. Thus, the merchant is not making a positive ROI on this affiliate traffic and this creates a negative feeling about affliates. In my opinion, anything that creates &#8220;positive ROI&#8221; results in &#8220;positive results for the affiliate community.&#8221; Anything with &#8220;negative ROI&#8221; has the opposite effect.</p>
<p>3. &#8220;no self respecting affiliate has ever been involved in spyware. Yes maybe a very small handful of bad apples did once upon a time but again they are firmly in the minority.&#8221; So I sent my article to my friend the former head of a major affiliate program (and still a very prominent figure in a different capacity in the online marketing community), and here&#8217;s what he wrote: &#8220;Good post, although no doubt in my mind that those hijacking sites/programs<br />
are still in affect - too many affiliate managers that are naïve and/or have<br />
incentive to look the other way (the &#8220;top&#8221; affiliates are helping them make their<br />
number - same conflict the networks have in policing, imo).&#8221; Not that this proves anything, but he and I both agree that there are one or two major affiliates in the US that get users to download their software, then do an instant re-direct whenever the user goes to a merchant with an affiliate program to capture the commission. The user has no idea that he is getting redirected, but the affiliate gets money at the merchant&#8217;s expense. Again, we are talking about year-after-year top &#8216;performers&#8217; in the US.</p>
<p>4.&#8221;Google’s quality score updates have pushed out the arbitrage sites and the poor quality landing page sites. Well David, we true affiliates welcome these changes. We don’t want crap landing pages and arby sites in the sponsored results either. Knocking them out of the way leaves more room for us and our high quality sites that have no problem with Google’s landing page algorithm.&#8221; Google does not differentiate between &#8220;crap affiliates&#8221; and &#8220;true affiliates.&#8221; Trust me, over time Google will do everything it can to push out ALL affiliates. I sat down with Google last year and tried to persuade them that there were different types of affiliates (though I did not use the words &#8220;good&#8221; and &#8220;crap&#8221; <img src='http://www.here.org.uk/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> ), and the message I basically got was &#8220;all affiliates&#8221; are not wanted on AdWords. So whether this impacts your site now or a year from now, I&#8217;m sorry to say that it will likely eventually happen. More on this concept here: <a href="http://blogation.blogspot.com/2006/11/more-on-google-quality-score-law-of.html">http://blogation.blogspot.com/2006/11/more-on-google-quality-score-law-of.html</a></p>
<p>5. &#8220;David argues that as affiliate marketing becomes more popular it is less “novel” to merchants. Eh? So because it is more popular it isn’t as good? I just don’t follow this argument whatsoever.&#8221; The basic argument here is that the &#8216;coolness&#8217; factor of affiliate marketing no longer exists, and it&#8217;s much easier to work with one or two major partners on a PPA basis than 5000 small affiliates. I suppose I would modify this to say that if you are a high-quality, high-volume affiliate, there&#8217;s a good chance a merchant would keep you on, but if you are generating $500 of revenue a month for a merchant, I believe most merchants will eventually decide that the risk of a &#8216;crap affiliate&#8217; outweighs any benefit derivered from dealing with many small affiliates.</p>
<p>6. &#8220;What about all of the very high quality affiliate sites out there that don’t fit into any of the above categories?&#8221; Of course there are good affiliates, my point was and is that the bad affiliates are ruining your reputation. </p>
<p>7. &#8220;David’s views accurately reflect what man “oustsiders” think of our industry.&#8221; For the record, I worked at Adteractive for two years heading up their paid search team. Adteractive does not have a presence in the UK, but when I was there we did over $100 million a year - all from affiliate marketing. And in my current position, I am responsible for the affiliate program for a major US merchant. When I tightened the T&amp;Cs on our program (no trademarked keyword buying, very few coupons, etc) the revenue from affiliate marketing went way down, but the revenue for the company was not impacted. It&#8217;s hard not to draw the conclusion from that data that our affiliates were not driving &#8216;positive ROI&#8217; to our company.</p>
<p>Anyways, what was supposed to be a short response has now made me late for work. Thanks for the comments. - David</p>
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